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 Post subject: Flinders
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2016, 19:22 
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Dived today, on Saturday 2pm-4pm. Visibility ~3 m, almost no surge. Four spearfishers in the area.
Bad news: took only one legal sized blacklip and one legal sized greenlip abalone. Found one greenlip undersized and 4 really small blacklip abs. Just a bad luck? I doubt it. Oh-hooh... Saw 7 30-36 cm dusky morwongs, one good size (25-30cm) luderick, 3 huge marblefish (aka. Southern Sea Carp, aka. Stinky grouper). Also saw two minuscule sweep, one pigmy magpie perch and tiny herring cale.

"Wonder why I bother to have my speargun loaded?" :roll:

Good news: found four juvenile ~20-25 cm Eastern Blue Grouper (Achoerodus viridis), another spearfisher I was talking to also saw 2 fish resembling Blue grouper. It looks like this fish is really re-establish itself in Victoria.
Numerous beautiful Sea Dragons.
First time in my life notice two little leatherjackets under the umbrella of jellyfish. Was unable to identify species, though. Jellyfish and some fish juvenile happy co-existence is well known, however leatherjackets? Still, I am pretty sure that someone somewhere already described this before.

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 Post subject: Re: Flinders
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2016, 19:39 
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Define re-establish?

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 Post subject: Re: Flinders
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2016, 20:22 
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Blue Groper numbers haven't changed much in nearly forever. They have always been here. They were never speared out . And there are no BIG ONES except East of the Prom.
In other words don't fall for the Green agenda..... they wouldn't have a bloody clue.
Tree hugging, hippy, save the gay whales, fish slapping, do gooder, no idea, sheep , wankers.


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 Post subject: Re: Flinders
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2016, 20:25 
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Octopussy wrote:
Define re-establish?


Oh, sorry, Octopussy! A vague term. I mean - they say Eastern Blue Grouper once a popular target for spearfishers "now considered one of the more elusive fish in our waters".
"Elusive" (in my opinion) means rare. I didn't record this fish during my SCUBA 12 months fish survey at back beaches in mid 90-s. Not a one, that is. Somehow, now the number of juveniles of this fish have increase. I don't know, though: this is due to the reproduction of local fish or through the surviving fish larvae brought by currents from NSW.

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 Post subject: Re: Flinders
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2016, 20:36 
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Brett Illingworth wrote:
Blue Groper numbers haven't changed much in nearly forever.

With all due respect, Brett, I think you don't have this numbers, to start with. Neither I do: in 1996 I didn't find this species (including juveniles) on back beaches during my SCUBA annual survey. Same year in Port Lincoln - each dive one or two big mature BG.
Brett Illingworth wrote:
In other words don't fall for the Green agenda..... they wouldn't have a bloody clue.


Oh, never. I don't like opinionated people, including Greenes. Tell you more: natural science people like myself are somehow cynical 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Flinders
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2016, 21:35 
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Blue Groper were never a popular target for spearfishers in this state. We have competition records going back to the fifties which prove categorically that they were not a common catch in comps.... therefore not wiped out by spearfishers. I have dived this state probably more than anybody in the past 50 years. I hold the state record Eastern Blue Groper. I have speared the second biggest Western Blue Groper shot in this state. I have many, many, many video clips of me shooting Groper over the years. I have many, many, many video clips of Groper that I didn't shoot. I can take you to places near Port Phillip Heads where you may see dozen fish on a dive. I can take you to places 5mminutes away where you will see none. Just because you didn't see one on a survey once means nothing except that you weren't where the fish was. (were). I see them some times and other times I don't see them. I do not think they are any more or less prevalent than they were decades ago. One reason that more sightings are being recorded is that more people are gaining greater access to a boat and therefore to areas where Groper a re more likely to be seen.


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 Post subject: Re: Flinders
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2016, 21:38 
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Also... Port Lincoln is not in Victoria. There have NEVER been large mature Western Blue Groper shot in this state. The state record is 0nly 3500gms, and that was shot a couple of days before the ban came into place.


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 Post subject: Re: Flinders
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2016, 23:10 
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Brett Illingworth wrote:
Blue Groper were never a popular target for spearfishers in this state. We have competition records going back to the fifties which prove categorically that they were not a common catch in comps.... therefore not wiped out by spearfishers.


Than you have some reliable numbers, Brett. So, it looks like insisting that this fish was
"a popular target for spearfishers in the mid 1900s"

is groundless, based on assumptions rather than facts.

What about this one:

"Their (BG) numbers appear to be rebuilding in Victoria after heavy fishing in the 1960s and 70s."
http://vnpa.org.au/page/nature-conserva ... n-victoria
??
You see, large species with high life expectancy like this species are more prone to local population depletion. However, some fish can be rare without any human pressure - could be a helluva reasons for that. For instance, green humphead parrotfish, the largest parrotfish is highly sought after by fishermen and in some areas declined because of overfishing. However, in the Northern Territory a harem of 11 individuals (1 male and 10 females) was recorded and reported only once - by me. This fish is not targeted at NT at all, but is very fussy to habitat requirement. Among 17 butterflyfishes of one of the NT marine parks only 6 were more or less common and 11 species were represented just by one individual in 3 years of intensive study.

What I read from your post indicates that Eastern Blue Grouper seems to be a species with very specific requirement to habitat.

Of course I agree with you saying that:

"Just because you didn't see one on a survey once means nothing except that you weren't where the fish was. (were)."
Spot on! as a biologist I was in such situations many times while searching for the animal: "wrong place, wrong time".
Certainly, I do trust your experience and extensive diving knowledge. However, I insist that all these clashes between alarmists-greenees-tree huggers and people with
"Ah, c'mon, everything is OK! with fish stocks!" have one serious reason: our knowledge on fish stocks and their dynamic is pathetic because of lack of interest, lack of funding, lack of human resources allocated for studies and survey. Eventually, decision makers instead of rigorous facts rely on campaigners, who rely on emotions, intuitions, their "dreams" and all this sort of crap.

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 Post subject: Re: Flinders
PostPosted: 07 Feb 2016, 06:05 
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Brett Illingworth wrote:
"Their (BG) numbers appear to be rebuilding in Victoria after heavy fishing in the 1960s and 70s." http://vnpa.org.au/page/nature-conserva ... n-victoria


THis statement is bullshit.
Any statement put out by the VNPA needs to be highly scrutinised. They are not a regulatory body. They are not a govt dept. This statement has not been made with ANY scientific backing or basis, The Groper ban was a kneejerk reaction to some rather wild statements made by poorly informed Green groups. The VNPA is one of these groups and that statement highlighted has NO basis in fact.


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 Post subject: Re: Flinders
PostPosted: 07 Feb 2016, 11:58 
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It would be quite unusual for you to see Eastern BG, since all I and anyone else see are western BG? Got any pictures?

As one of the people who sat down and went through decades of hard copy comp results I can tell you not only were there not any big BG recorded as shot, there actually weren't that many shot, especially around central Vic. I would say Vic has been a bit of natural barrier for the species, otherwise you wouldn't see the split of the species into Eastern BG and Western BG on either side of the state. But I'm not a biologist.

The habitat these sorts of fish prefer (surging reef areas) and the habitat scuba divers prefer (piers with ample parking <100 m away) explain more fish survey results than just BG.

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 Post subject: Re: Flinders
PostPosted: 07 Feb 2016, 18:48 
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Brett Illingworth wrote:
Brett Illingworth wrote:
"Their (BG) numbers appear to be rebuilding in Victoria after heavy fishing in the 1960s and 70s." http://vnpa.org.au/page/nature-conserva ... n-victoria


THis statement is bullshit.
Any statement put out by the VNPA needs to be highly scrutinised. They are not a regulatory body. They are not a govt dept.


Brett, what difference does it makes is it a government department or not? Government departments in this country and worldwide sometimes making decision not based or any scientific facts (I doubt that you are unaware of this). It is pretty strange to read that government department somehow miraculously obtain accurate and rigorous scientific information from thin air just because they are regulatory bodies.

Have a look at some piece of regulation of government regulation body, the Department of Economic Development, Jobs, Transport and Resources (DEDJTR) of Victoria:
"Eastern blue groper & Western blue groper. Taking or attempting to take, including catch and release, is prohibited."
http://agriculture.vic.gov.au/fisheries ... lue-groper

By the way, Northern Territory government for ages prohibited any interactions with wild cycads plants. Of course on a basis of "they are rare and have to be protected". Until botanist have done a thorough survey and found that some of cycads species are in fact abundant. Now this species are harvested commercially.

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Last edited by Caesio on 07 Feb 2016, 19:07, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Flinders
PostPosted: 07 Feb 2016, 19:01 
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kiwi_scott wrote:
...But I'm not a biologist.

The habitat these sorts of fish prefer (surging reef areas) and the habitat scuba divers prefer (piers with ample parking <100 m away) explain more fish survey results than just BG.


Well, a very brave suggestion, kiwi_scott :lol:. May I ask you, how many scientific SCUBA diving survey you participated personally?

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 Post subject: Re: Flinders
PostPosted: 07 Feb 2016, 19:29 
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None, that's why I know where to find blue groper

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 Post subject: Re: Flinders
PostPosted: 07 Feb 2016, 20:27 
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Caesio wrote:
Brett, what difference does it makes is it a government department or not?


None , but the statement is still NOT BLOODY FACTUAL.


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 Post subject: Re: Flinders
PostPosted: 07 Feb 2016, 20:55 
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Lmao scuba serveys?
I'm not trying to have a go at you or anything but how much do you know about Victorian blue groper?
I have been in discussion with a marine biologist "Dr Matt Koopman" regarding this bullshit ban that is in place.


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