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PostPosted: 26 Aug 2011, 18:15 
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Um.... i think the tea shot was a bit of a give away that these images are photoshoped....


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PostPosted: 26 Aug 2011, 19:52 
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Claire wrote:
Um.... i think the tea shot was a bit of a give away that these images are photoshoped....


Why do you say that?

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PostPosted: 26 Aug 2011, 19:55 
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this would be a dream come true, hopefully one day.
it would be awesome and unique to swim with an animal with such power.

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PostPosted: 26 Aug 2011, 22:23 
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Where does the majority of our oxygen come from Lou? It's not bloody trees. It's from ocean-born algae, almost 80% of oxygen is produced within the ocean. If all is in balance, the algae exist at the correct numbers to produce enough oxygen for US to live. If you eliminate sharks, the fish stocks increase, which sounds good, particularly for spearos, but more fish equal less oxygen producing algae. So if you eliminate enough sharks, you kill US. So I'm not even harping about biodiversity, or sharks' right to live.
So while it might be fine to kill a shark or two, particularly for food sake, but when you remove protection for an entire species and encourage such a ridiculous attitude, then there might be a few problems.

Pull your redneck in.

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PostPosted: 26 Aug 2011, 22:54 
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Does the shark fatality victim give two shits about the shark that killed them anymore? Hell, even the ones that survive and have limbs missing etc, state that they don't what revenge killings of the shark (or at least that's what they tell channel 7 news).

We haven't done a very good job of "eliminating" those pesky bloody bees that kill about 90 to 100 people each year.

The only point I'd agree on is that human life is indeed Sacred. But one death does not in-turn justify a revenge killing of a creature doing what it does in its element.

Some might argue that if indeed, there was a particular problem shark that hunts us tasty beings, it should be killed. I still dunno about that.

I think your so bitter about sharks Lou because of your mates death (Sean was it??) I have read a couple posts you have made here and on spearoz about it and that's understandable.

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PostPosted: 26 Aug 2011, 23:38 
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I will have a go at any post that is that irresponsible, sharks are important and need to be protected. There are people who possess the knowledge to make the decisions about protecting species, and it doesn't just fall down to saving lives, or public opinion, there is a wider issue to address.

EDIT: I have altered my post to reduce the 'personal attack' upon you Lou. But your opinions, while you are entitled to them and I would never deny that, are outdated and ill-informed. For your own sake, perhaps you should browse some of the more recent journals and papers written on these controversial topics.

As for growing up, I think I have rationally stated a very accurate and responsible reply. I'm not sure how you could consider this immature.

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PostPosted: 27 Aug 2011, 00:10 
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[quote="Lou Hadju"]And Ash, no I don't believe sharks deserve protection.

And yes, I know all about apex predators and indicator species etc.
Whilst I'm nowhere near as educated as you obviously are, I have read a bit and even watched a documentary or two.

So you are of the belief that if sharks are eradicated (and I'm not advocating that) then civilization as we know it is doomed?

And if so then how do you explain the fact that most of the worlds apex predators have either been wiped out or at least decimated in numbers and yet we humans continue to flourish?

Yes, I know about the complex inter relationships between species and how minor changes in numbers can adversely affect biodiversity which could ultimately affect our lives etc etc etc.

! just wondering lou,snakes,crocs spiders,tigers lions polar bears and grizzleys all kill people you have run ins with them in there habitat,hippos kill more people in africa than anything else,do you think we should kill everything that has the ability to do us damage or just the sharks. ps idont know you and am not having a go,just want to know were your coming from. :?:

.


Last edited by Wolfy on 28 Aug 2011, 01:16, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 27 Aug 2011, 00:17 
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I'd rather have an angry white after me than an angry Wolfy. The shark is far less dangerous and terrifying!

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PostPosted: 27 Aug 2011, 01:14 
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Ash wrote:
I'd rather have an angry white after me than an angry Wolfy. The shark is far less dangerous and terrifying!
come on ash be fair,i havent eaten anyone for at least 3weeks!!! :lol:


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PostPosted: 28 Aug 2011, 19:06 
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So your hungry then wolfy?

I agree with ash saying they need protection!
How different would the kingfish population be if
They didn't make us have a bag limit? And if they
Kept dropping fish traps everywhere there would be
Fuck all left!

If a shark walks into my house and tries to eat me
I will do everything I can to eat him but I'm sure
I have the upper hand!

You jump in the water and swim around (slowly)
Like some sort of crippled seal then you can understand
A shark is going to want a taste!

Rodney fox was attacked by a shark competing in a spearfishing
Comp in SA and he simply said "it was just having a taste, if it wanted
To eat me I wouldn't be here today"
How many people get bitten and go back in the water knowing
There is more of a chance of winning the lotto or being struck by
Lightning or kicked by a horse..


Why dont we ban cars? they kill hundreds of people a year

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PostPosted: 29 Aug 2011, 00:08 
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Lou Hadju wrote:
It seems the point of contention is whether whites should be protected or not.
As they are, and always will be that argument is answered.

As for the rest, apart from a few species, nurse, thresher, and whale....they are mostly not. Unfortunately, with the help of people like the guys in the photos more species will be added.
It occurred to me today that most of you guys have grown up with whites being protected, so for you this is the norm. Also you’ve been bombarded by countless documentaries about the natural world, often based on the apex predators, narrated by the soothing voice of Sir David and often ending in, “but sadly, this magnificent bird, animal, fish.. is now endangered because of humans etc etc”. Very emotional stuff.

Before a lot of you were born, whites were unprotected.
Some cagey entrepreneurs were cashing in on the publics fascination with sharks.
The Taylors.... These two, along with their mates are directly responsible for the bans on the following species.
Professional spearfishermen. Took countless amounts of Black Cod, Queensland Groper, Blue Groper and powerheaded hundreds of Grey Nurse sharks... all for the market.
Once fish stocks started to decline they were the first to venture out into the Coral Sea looking for untapped resources.
However Ron was clever enough to realize that spearing was not going to sustain them in the long term and decided to film some of their exploits.
Well the public love it.... how brave they were, especially the beautiful Valerie (and trust me, she was a spunk in her day!)
Yes, they blew away Grey Nurses, speared heaps of fish, chopped sea snakes in half with hedge clippers...riotous fun!
And the dollars just rolled on in.
But it was the shark action that the public loved so their attention focused on these and eventually whites in particular.

Rodney Fox....
Was an insurance salesman at the time he was attacked.
Then became an ab diver before cottoning onto the fact that there was good money to be made by taking tourists shark cage diving with whites.
And for those of you who believe that he bore no grudge against sharks after he was bitten, then clearly you did not see the documentary on him, filmed by the Taylors (but I might be wrong on that).
In it he admitted that he was so pissed off that he took up an offer to go to NSW and blow away as many Grey Nurses and Whalers as he could.
All filmed and aired on national TV. I still remember the shots from below, looking up at the boat, heaps of sharks hanging by their tails, clouds of blood wafting down.
Nah, he wasn’t pissed off at all!

There were others too...John Harding, Henri Bource and a host of lesser lights.
All cashing in on the publics fascination with sharks.

And then along came the movie Jaws. It proved to be a world wide sensation.

The Taylors were rapt. They actually got to film most of the underwater shots for the film.
And countless follow up documentaries and specials, they became overnight millionaires.
Pissed a few people off... especially going to locations on the S Aus coastline unannounced, burleying the shit out of the place, attracting huge angry whites, then stuffing a wetsuited dummy full of burley, putting a chain mail suit on it and putting it in front of them to see how much damage occurred to the chain suit.
All this with a couple of unwitting ab divers on the other side of the point. Not happy campers when they found out.

Rodney Fox was rapt, hundreds of divers were wanting to see a white in the water, business boomed.
He was charging $10,000 per diver for a one week expedition, and that was back then. In no time at all he was rich too!

But unfortunately for them, Jaws was too successful.
It scared the shit out of people to the point where, especially in America, no one would go swimming, surfing or diving. Hundreds of businesses world wide went broke.
At the same time everyone wanted a set of jaws for the lounge room wall. A good set would fetch $1000 or more.
Well we can’t have people killing the cash cow now, can we?
Fox, Taylor and the likes screamed long and loud and thats where the bullshit started.
Apex predator, noble magnificent creature, around since the time of the dinosaurs, critically endangered!
Fox appeared on national television and stated, “there are 39 white pointers left in the world”.
As it turns out the Cousteau’s were in the country at the time, they took a plane and flew over the Bight and other parts of the SA WA coastline and in a week counted over 200, and these were obviously the ones on the surface... who knows how many more were on the bottom?
They politely concluded that Mr Fox was “mistaken” in his assessment of white numbers.
No shit?
Still, Fox and Taylor were bringing big tourist dollars into the country, the green movement was taking off and after South Africa, of all places, placed a ban on them other countries, including Aus followed suit.

So there you have it folks, banned mainly to protect commercial interests.
Not one scrap of scientific research was conducted at the time.
Ah, but at least one of us has read “papers”.
Papers.... papers are written by folk with a vested interest. Rarely is there an objective study done in cases such as this.
The researcher would have wanted to find a good reason to justify protection, and finds accordingly.
Or the government supplys funds for a researcher to investigate the situation.
Never will a researcher conclude that, ”yep, theres actually shitloads of them out there, lets kill a few.” But more likely, “ oh yes, they’re highly endangered, need more study, give me another grant so I can spend the next couple of years dagging around on the water.” Where he’ll find they’re still endangered etc.

And what has all this research found?
They’re an apex predator... good... didn’t know that one.
Slow growing.... aha.... late maturing... yes..... few offspring..... really?
Oh, and they travel a lot.... no! Get out of here! For real!!!
But how many are there, to be so endangered?
Don’t know, do you?

What a joke. On the strength of this research I’m expected to allow an attacking white to have me for lunch or get fined for defending myself.

But getting back to numbers.
It stands to reason that there are far more around today than there were 100 years ago.
What do I base this on?
100 years ago the Bass Strait sealers, along with sealers worldwide decimated seal populations on all corners of the globe, only stopping the slaughter when numbers dropped to the point where it became economically unviable to continue.
At the same time whalers were busy devastating the whales.
Both of these species are vital food sources for whites. Knowing how population dynamics works it only stands to reason that with a drastically reduced food supply white numbers would have crashed.
With protection of these species their numbers have rebounded dramatically as would have shark numbers. This is a biological fact, often called “the balance of nature”.
Oh, and have I mentioned that they are a global species, found in numbers on every continent of the world, (except maybe Antactica).
Endangered, I don’t think so.

So am I advocating wiping them out? Fuck no! Nothing deserves to be wiped out.
But I do not believe that they deserve protection.
Some seem to believe that if protection was removed this would trigger a response that would have them wiped out. Why would one take that attitude?
Before protection a handful were taken ever year, mostly by game fishermen. That was it.
Actually, as an aside, The Great White Shark, Greg Norman, caught a couple off SA. The first one was released for the benefit of the cameras and squeamish viewing audiences but after the cameras left he went and caught another one for a dead fish photo. Article from Modern Fishing back then.
Probably deny it now.

So, am I an ignorant redneck that just wants to kill, kill, kill?
If you want to believe that then thats your business.
But I think you will find that I know far more about the subject than most of you and that is not what I am on about.
Those wankers swimming with the whites want sharks protected.
Whites already are. So clearly they want more... what next, tigers... bull sharks?
With added protection comes more sharks... more sharks will result in more fatalities.
And when that happens people will say that it was the victims fault for entering “their” environment.
People say it now.
Hence my comment that these guys are educating the public to accept sharks killing people.
If you choose not to see the connection then thats your problem.
And as stated before, human life is far more important than something as insignificant as a shark.
If my dog bites an intruder on my property, he is put down, if I cause a death I am jailed but a shark fatality? Nothing...but almost pity for the poor shark and condemnation for the victim.
This is completely irrational.

While I am truly shattered at the loss of my good mate to a shark, I have always been against the protection of whites, purely for commercial considerations and on hearsay evidence.
And to this day I have seen no hard evidence to suggest that their numbers are such that they needed protection then or now.
Clearly I don’t see them as some wonderful animal, but rather as an ugly and at times quite grotesque shark.

And as for comments in relation to car accidents, killer bees or whites in the kitchen.....


Much too long, not going to read that. *lazy*


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PostPosted: 29 Aug 2011, 01:36 
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thanks for your comprehensive thoughts on the subject lou.think you and i cover roughly the same time scale on this planet.istill have some of the old books from that era,eg ben cropps "shark hunters"ect and some off ron taylors (who was a top spero)publications. there were a lot of people with vested interest in sharks both pro and con!!!dont know if you remember a guy by the name of vic hyslop who basiclly said all whites were evil and every second dissapearance in victorian waters was caused by them.he made a killing by catching ,freezing and displaying round the country a big white in a freezer truck.!! no vested intrest there.rollup!rollup !see the evil mankiller. i do a lot of diving round the local surf beachs and when you look up at all the kids on boogy boards ect you soon realize that if whites really were interested in people it would be easier than pulling an apple off a tree for you and me. iknow ive got heaps more chance of being killed in my car on the way to the dive than getting whacked by a shark and in nearly 50 years of diving have yet to see one while in the water.know it is illegal to harm whites but if you seriously think that you would get charged let alone fined for protecting yourself against one i think you are greatly mistaken! anyway suspect non of this will change your thoughts on the subject and while people may not understand it ,its your opinion and your entitled to it.


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PostPosted: 29 Aug 2011, 09:06 
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I took the time to read it, informative response thanks Lou.

While on the subject of Great whites, Here's a great story of Vaughan Hill, A NZ based Abalone diver. This Article was quoted from the freely available NZ Mag here http://www.wettie.co.nz/magazine.php?zSid=74823946979943b4db161cfb5a6d1b26 and if you want to see all the Ripper pictures I suggest read it from the August Issue.

Quote:
September 6th 1996, Vaughan Hill 23 years old with dive mate Eddie Reriti are going hard to catch the last of their paua quota before the season ends on the 30th of the month.
Boarding Eddies boat at Waitangi on the Chathams they steamed to Pitt Island in very average conditions. Vaughan was still buzzing from the birth of his son 3 months before; he could not wait to get back home after this trip to be with him. Little did he realise that was going to be a lot longer than what he could ever imagine.

They anchored up for the night at Pitt. After an uneventful night they rose early, had a quick breakfast then on the water in their smaller dive boat at 7am. Conditions were not good at all, limiting spots that were diveable.
The first spot they dived yielded only one kit of paua between them after a half an hour swim. This was no good. Back on the boat they headed further east to a prominent point jumping in right on a bed of around 800kgs of paua. This was what they were here for.

Both divers went to work, filling their kits fast. Vaughan swam out deeper away from the rocks. They had a new boat boy running the dive boat, this would help him get close to Vaughan for pick up without putting the boat in danger of hitting rocks. An experienced boat boy would have no problems and do it very fast, speed is of the essence in this game. Vaughan waited in 5 foot of water for the boat to get to him, the boat boy threw him an empty kit as he latched onto Vaughan‘s very full one. Vaughan looked down spotting a good patch of paua right under him. He breathed up and dived straight back into the task of hooking paua‘s into his kit. All of a sudden he felt a slap in his side like someone‘s hand. He spun around but there was nothing, not even any pesky blue cod or wrasse, which are a paua divers constant companion. Air was now needed. Vaughan looked for the surface
nd headed up. He circled slowly as he ascended glancing to his right. The horror of all horrors greeted him. He was in the jaws of a big great white. The big pointed snout, the evil black eyes, which were now covered for protection while in attack mode, were right there under his armpit. The white had come in from behind, the jaw circling from the base of his neck down his back around his side encompassing his arm and front. Time seemed to
eeze. Vaughan looked to the surface for help; he was still metres below it & was confused. The water above him was a cloudy green, with blood, he blacked out. Seconds later he came around & he was back on the surface free of the jaws. He was conscious with blood all around him, fear now gripped him. Where was the shark? He screamed for the boat, put his head back under scanning for the shark, he could see nothing but blood. It completely clouded the water all around him. The feeling of not knowing where the shark was, was almost overwhelming, Vaughan had to keep his head straight. At this stage he had no idea he was so badly injured, survival as his only thought. Funny thing looking back now was he still had his paua t and tool, the instinct, as a working diver to hold on to these was obviously strong.

He lifted his head & the boat boy was coming towards him slowly looking for hazards not realising with his limited experience the need to be on a diver immediately when requested. He yelled again which was a real effort.
His voice had seemed to have drained with his blood. He had no strength left. As the boat got to him, he lunged at it but his wrists gave way, they were so damaged, his paua tool fell from his hand & his instinct made him dive to retrieve it. He surfaced & the boat boy grabbed him and tried to pull him aboard but he was too heavy. With what felt like his last breath he told the boat boy to release his belt and get rid of all the lead around his waist
but he could still not drag him aboard. Vaughan was past trying, all he could do was try and stay conscious. His thoughts were also of the shark, would it attack him again? Blood was all around the boat. Before he knew what was happening the boat boy put a rope around his
waist, jammed the boat in reverse dragging Vaughan over to where Eddie was diving to get his assistance. This created another hazard for Vaughan. He could not breathe and he was now a bleeding lure being towed mostly under water. He could not stop the boat boy, he just had to try and survive & get his lips above the surface to breathe. Eddie was 100 metres away, which it seemed like miles. He blacked out. Next thing he knew he was lying on the deck of the dive tender, Eddie was swearing, he blacked out again.

His next memory was coming alongside the big boat with the boys on the radio summoning help. He drifted into blackness coming around as he was lifted in a blue tarp onto the Merlin; a very fast alloy boat owned by Patch, Eddie‘s brother. From then on, Vaughan drifted from consciousness to darkness, one memory was the spray coming from Patches boat, massive waves of it firing into the air, Patch was pushing the boat to it‘s limits. The air around was foggy and drizzly, Eddie was beside Vaughan. In a lucid moment he summoned him to listen ?Tell my wife and boy I love them? Eddies response was ? Tell them yourself?
Vaughan was having trouble breathing; his new suit had a velcro strap around his throat that needed undoing. He asked Eddie to sort it out. Instead of pealing it open he took out a large knife attacking the throat area with vigour. Vaughan was horrified, not only for his new suit but the fact he may now get his throat cut, it was all too much he went out again.
When he came around next he was on the back of an old Toyota single cab ute with no exhaust going hell for leather over a road he knew was rutted out from the rain. He felt he could be launched into the air at any moment. It soon stopped for a gate; two guys were beside him, one jumped off to open it. As he went he was yelling,? he‘s fu;#ked, he‘s
fu<^ked ? The other guy told him to stop saying that. Vaughan went out again, waking up 3 weeks later in Wellington hospital, his mates filled in the details of what happened from the gate. A small plane with a doctor flew to Pitt from the main island. Cloud was very low. After three attempts, a small window opened and they landed just by the skin of their teeth. The pilot had wanted to abort but Vaughan‘s life counted on him getting there. They flew him back to the main island. The guy who opened the door at that airport thought someone had slaughtered several sheep inside, blood was everywhere.

He was lifted into the terminal to be stabilised. As he was lifted, a guys hand disappeared into a wound on his back they did not realise he had. Apparently as more blood was feed into Vaughan, he would drift in and out of consciousness, he does not remember this.
A call was made for a Medical Emergency flight from NZ but that would take a few hours, Vaughan did not have this luxury. There was a grounded Chatham Islands plane in the hanger that had some mechanical problems, the doctor commandeered this. There were 3 blood donors also to fly with him; they were all used twice on the flight. He was flown straight to Wellington airport, on both flights the doctor had to kick start Vaughan‘s heart, he was one sick diver. He went through 95 units of blood that first day & had a large tooth removed from his back. Over the course of his hospital stay everything that could fail in his body did. His weight dropped to 45kgs. He stayed in hospital for 4 months then became a day patient for 2 years. The guy that cleaned up the plane found a big tooth in the blood. His mates went out to the area he was attacked and caught 5 great whites; one had a couple of missing teeth. Vaughan is now back diving, in the next issue we will tell you a bit about
his recovery and getting back into the game again.
This guy is one tough =Weka‘; don‘t miss the next chapter of Vaughan‘s amazing story.

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PostPosted: 29 Aug 2011, 11:20 
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Lou Hadju wrote:
Ah, but at least one of us has read “papers”.
Papers.... papers are written by folk with a vested interest. Rarely is there an objective study done in cases such as this.
The researcher would have wanted to find a good reason to justify protection, and finds accordingly.

From a profession that is reponsible for a number of these types of papers, you're incorrect for the most part. I'm sure there are a number of researchers with some vested interest, but for the most part, these researchers are backed by independant universities. So they have a limited grant which is not based upon commercial interests. They don't earn anything out of writing a university paper (that's not necessarily a student out to make their name either, if you're familiar with uni masters and PhD programs you'll understand that).
Lou Hadju wrote:

And what has all this research found?
They’re an apex predator... good... didn’t know that one.
Slow growing.... aha.... late maturing... yes..... few offspring..... really?
Oh, and they travel a lot.... no! Get out of here! For real!!!
But how many are there, to be so endangered?
Don’t know, do you?

That's why researchers get grants to write papers. Research is not always in favour of protecting animals, look at the Hong Kong airport and the island it was built over. Numerous species were wiped out, this wasn't just to genereate money but to keep Hong Kong's interest free of Chinese rule for another generation.
Lou Hadju wrote:
Oh, and have I mentioned that they are a global species, found in numbers on every continent of the world, (except maybe Antactica).
Endangered, I don’t think so.

You are correct, they are found all over the world. That doesn't impact their endangered status HERE. There are many species of animals found all over the world that are protected in some areas but not in others.
Lou Hadju wrote:
So am I advocating wiping them out? Fuck no! Nothing deserves to be wiped out.

Lou Hadju wrote:
We are a global species, we've inhabited virtually every environment on the planet, we fly in the skies, we swim in the oceans.... and we've eliminated every creature that takes our lives... until now.
Now we protect them.
In my opinion this is wrong.

Lou, you understand this issue based upon you're own personal experiences, which does not factor in the environmental factors present. Before you harp about hippies and other bullshit, the environment has become a priority because people have learnt from past mistakes.
Lou Hadju wrote:
If my dog bites an intruder on my property, he is put down, if I cause a death I am jailed but a shark fatality? Nothing...but almost pity for the poor shark and condemnation for the victim.
This is completely irrational.

You're dog is supposed to be domesticated, no one has ever made that claim for a shark, wild or in captivity. Mentioning yourself in the same context is ridiculous.

A very long post full of comments belonging in the dark ages.

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PostPosted: 30 Aug 2011, 14:28 
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Sharks bad reputation? hmmmm....

Article Information: Townsville Bulletin August 30, 2011 10:54AM

http://www.news.com.au/national/holidaymaker-torn-apart-by-tiger-sharks-near-fantome-island/story-e6frfkwr-1226125336123

peace.

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